Turkey obstructs efforts to include China in the Astana mechanism of Syrian resolution process

China wants to become a participant of the Astana format

China plans to become a full-fledged participant in the Astana process to resolve the situation in Syria and has already discussed this issue with Moscow. This was reported to the "Izvestia" by a high-ranking Chinese diplomat in charge of the region of the Middle East. However, for the time being, among all the participants - and this, besides Russia, Iran and Turkey - "there is no consensus on China's participation." Resists the involvement of Beijing in the Astana process Turkey, explained to Izvestia the Syrian Ambassador to China Imad Mustafa. According to him, Ankara fears that with the involvement of China, pressure on Turkey will intensify due to suspicions of supporting cross-border terrorist groups, including those operating in Chinese Xinjiang.

The so-called Astana format was formed in January 2017 on the initiative of Russia, Turkey and Iran, who decided to bring together representatives of the authorities and the armed opposition in Syria at one negotiating table. Representatives of China waited for an invitation to become observers even then, but in 2017 Beijing did not receive it. But this year, when representatives of the opposing Syrian forces, under the auspices of the leaders of Russia, Iran and Turkey, gathered during the meeting in Astana at the Sochi Congress of the National Dialogue of Syria, China took part in it as an observer. Now Beijing is actively advocating to join the process of the Syrian peace settlement as the fourth participant.

- China today takes an increasingly active position in international affairs. If we were invited to participate in the Astana / Sochi format (as the fourth participant), we would be extremely positive about such a proposal. We discussed this topic with our Russian friends - the Russian Federation is not against our participation. But this process is not only Russia - there are other participants in it, and obviously there is no consensus on the participation of the PRC among them, - a high-ranking Chinese diplomat admitted in a conversation with Izvestia.

Specifying directly who exactly - Iran or Turkey - resists the connection of Beijing as a full participant in the peace talks on Syria, the representative of the PRC did not. At the same time, Ambassador of Syria in China Imad Mustafa told Izvestia that Ankara is the opponent of Beijing's joining the "triangle".

- There is one serious obstacle for China's more active role - Turkey's opposition to any expansion of the tripartite format. Ankara fears that with the accession of China, pressure will be exerted on Turkey demanding to stop supporting cross-border terrorist groups, including the Islamic Movement of East Turkestan, and show more respect for the territorial sovereignty of Syria, the diplomat said, implying in the latter case a military operation of the Turkish military in Syrian Africa.

Suspicions of Ankara's support for the Islamic Movement of Eastern Turkestan (ETIM) have been clouding relations between China and Turkey for several years. Established in 1993 and operating in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region of the People's Republic of China (in Russia the movement was recognized as a terrorist organization since 2003), the IFES has been fighting for independence from China for many years. In total, the movement suspected of having links with Al Qaeda and the Taliban (organizations banned in Russia) has already claimed responsibility for about 200 terrorist attacks.

Ankara, acting as a defender of the Muslim and primarily the Turkic world, condemned acts of terrorism, while openly expressing sympathy for the Uyghur Muslims. In 2012, his first visit to China as Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan began his demonstration from the city of Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang. And in 2015, the decision of the Chinese authorities to prohibit Uyghur Muslims from committing religious pilgrimages to Ramadan and conducting religious rituals during this Muslim holy month were met by Turkey with a call of the PRC Ambassador to the Foreign Ministry and massive anti-Chinese protests in several Turkish cities.

The problem of Uyghur separatism for China is complicated by the fact that with the outbreak of the war in Syria, about 5 thousand Uighur militants have leaked there, according to Damascus. In Beijing, they fear that the combat experience gained in Syria can later be used for terrorist activities already in the PRC. This partly explains the spirit of the Chinese authorities for closer cooperation with the Syrians, including the security line.

Indirect evidence that of the three participants in the Astana platform can be objected only to Turkey, we can also consider Iran's position.

"Iran not only did not oppose China's participation in the Astana process on Syria, but was the first country to invite China to Astana as an observer, but then rejected this idea," the advisor to Iran's foreign minister, former director of the Institute of Political and international studies of the Iranian Foreign Ministry Rasul Seyed Mousavi.

Since the beginning of the civil war in Syria, China has actively participated in providing humanitarian assistance to the Syrian victims of the war. According to the estimates of the Chinese government's special envoy for Syria, Xie Xiaoyang (the post was established in March 2016 in addition to the post of special envoy for the Middle East), for several years the total amount of humanitarian and financial assistance to Beijing of Syria amounted to $ 116 million. Meanwhile, the PRC is ready to further help Syria , and not only for humanitarian assistance.

"China is ready to attract its companies to the restoration work in Syria as soon as the security situation there improves," Xieoyan said at the end of April during his next visit to Moscow, where he discussed Syria's topic with Russian Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Mikhail Bogdanov.

According to Xie Xiaoyan, Syria's post-war reconstruction will require about $ 260 billion and China, as a responsible world power, will do its bit in this costly process.

Last year, the PRC government announced the initiative to invest about $ 2 billion in the construction of an industrial park in Syria with the connection of 150 Chinese companies. It was also announced that Huawei could work on reconstruction of the Syrian telecommunications infrastructure. In addition, along with Russian and Iranian Chinese companies have become the main participants of the International Exhibition in Damascus in September 2017 - the first exhibition of this kind since the beginning of the war.

The growing interest of Beijing in the situation in Syria is largely due to the fact that one of the priority tasks of China in the near future is to implement the ambitious project One Belt One Way, within which the PRC plans to build a railway network linking Asia and Europe. And one of the most convenient geographic variants of the route lies through the Middle East region, namely through Turkey or Syria.


Interview with ex-director of FSB (Federal Security Service of Russia) Nikolai Kovalyov on Turkey from 04.12.2015

Y. BUDKIN: Nikolai Kovalev today in the program "Jackets", a member of the State Duma Committee on Security and Anti-Corruption. Nikolai Dmitriyevich, hello.

N. KOVALEV: Hello.

Y. BUDKIN: As generals come, in this case, Mr. Kovalev is an army general, they always begin to express themselves against the name of this program - "Jackets".

N. KOVALEV: Traditionally, all military men have always called the jackets of those who came from civil sector. And we also have such an interlayer, which made quite a successful career, including in the Ministry of Defence after the graduation from the civil institution of higher education was awarded the rank of lieutenant. And many, once again, came and made a successful career. Suffice it to recall Kvashnin, who became the chief of the General Staff of the Russian Defense Ministry. So, after them, who came from a citizen, this nickname was fixed, I do not know what to call them, they were called "jackets", people with a military bone, who graduated from Suvorov cadet schools, military schools, then military institutes. This is an age-old confrontation and to do podnachki to each other, jokes on this topic. Therefore, I am completely calm about the double bottom.

If we talk about the relationship of power in general and the press, culture, we are always disliked by power, and especially people of art like the so-called kukish in his pocket.

Y. BUDKIN: In any case, for journalists, a jacket is someone who can answer questions.


Y. BUDKIN: Today, Nikolai Kovalev. Look, Nikolai Dmitrievich ...

N. KOVALEV: Today I'm in the role of a jacket.

Y. BUDKIN: Today reports have come that the German parliament has already approved the deployment of parts of the Bundeswehr in Syria in order to fight the banned organization "Islamic State". That is, they really come to their feet. What does it mean?

N. KOVALYOV: Please note that the Germans say one thing: that they go there to support, above all, the French. And this is a principled position. And the Germans as citizens of their country, and the leadership of Germany. And, for example, the same Englishmen declared their readiness to join military actions. But, again, without contact with representatives of the Syrian army. These conditions, which they try to impose, they speak about the unpreparedness of European countries and, of course, above all the United States of America to full-scale cooperation within the framework of a world anti-terrorist coalition of the type of anti-Hitler coalition that was created and acted quite successfully.

Y. BUDKIN: This is not dangerous? Because in parallel we have ... Yes, Peskov did not comment on the reports of Western media that we may have more than one base in Syria. But such messages already exist. It is said that there may even be three bases, one way or another.

N. KOVALYOV: Do you mean from the point of view of the clashes, from the point of view of the aggravation of the situation?


N. KOVALYOV: No, this is not a danger, as the actions will be coordinated. Unfortunately, I must say that the Turks have violated this coordination. After all, Hollande, the President of France, when he came here, the main task was precisely in the talks with Putin to agree on coordination and interaction. This is the exchange of goals, this is the joint planning of some operations, so that, accidentally, each other does not get caught up in a conflict, as a result of which one of the sides will suffer or, God forbid, a serviceman of one of the countries. For this, there are headquarters. And we constantly insisted on coordination.

Y. BUDKIN: But coordination does not work out. You just said.

N. KOVALYOV: The problem is that in fact, coordination does not work at the political level.

Y. BUDKIN: So technically it exists?

N. KOVALYOV: And this is tragedy, because professionals working, for example, in the field of combating terrorism, get on well with each other and understand what needs to be done and how to do it. The military are the same. They understand the consequences of the lack of coordination. Well, who will come to the rescue in case of an aggravation of the situation? The same Germans are perfectly aware that it is very important to inform the leadership of the Russian armed forces in time to ensure that they receive effective assistance there. Once again, professionals understand how to do and how to act.

Y. BUDKIN: From what you are saying, one more thing follows. How will you comment on it? Then it turns out that the pilot could not bring down the pilot without the order of the commander.

N. KOVALEV: Of course. This is quite obvious. It is quite obvious that this decision was made long before our airplane appeared over the territory of Syria. It was a completely conscious decision. It is clear, than it is dictated, in my opinion. This is primarily a different kind of political considerations, because the Turkish leadership, of course, wants the coalition's hands to strike at the Kurdish People's Party, first of all. As a matter of fact - on opposition which struggles with them. Kurds, to this day, occupy an absolutely anti-terrorist position. They are fighting for what is now properly called ...

Y. BUDKIN: So basically it turns out that the Kurds are allies to us? Or we are.

N. KOVALEV: In this situation, we are allies of all who fight terrorism. Today, in fact, with terrorist groups, no matter what they are called. Various coverages are used in the names up to the "Islamic state", which is actually wrong. And today the whole world today switched to the abbreviation of the DAESH, which in essence in Arabic means the same thing, but does not sound very harmonious in Arabic.

Y. BUDKIN: This is about as they say, that it is necessary to criminals in a pig's hide, whether that, to bury. This is to offend or what? What is this for?

N. KOVALYOV: You know, this is to prevent the possibility of discrediting and acting on behalf of Islam, on behalf of religion. By the way, I will say that the terrorists made a decision and punish everyone who uses the term "DAESH" with seventy blows, seventy sticks. Keep this in mind.

Y. BUDKIN: But do you have something?

N. KOVALEV: I have, of course.

Y. BUDKIN: Yuri writes: "Turkey just wanted them not to fly over its territory. But did Russia continue to defiantly violate the borders? "

N. KOVALYOV: Yuri has strange information. Because if the plane gets off 4 km from the border with Turkey over the territory of Syria, and over the territory controlled by the militants, and the video shows that this is including our fighters, natives of Russia, who for one reason or another ran there. And today they continue, unfortunately, fıght in terrorist organizations. It is therefore strange to hear these statements, which, most likely, of course, are based on absolute propaganda, which today sounds from the lips of the leadership of the United States of America and Turkey. Once again, I repeat, and this is important: the provocation was being prepared. If there was no reason for the plane, we would find another reason.

Y. BUDKIN: It's just that again, here, 655th writes: "They say the Turks warned beforehand in case they fly in. What offenses can there be? "Yuri writes:" How do you say 4 km? It used to be 1 km away. " I'm talking about something else. That our military does not show evidence.

N. KOVALYOV: I will allow myself one remarks, because the same president of Turkey suddenly says that if we knew that it was a Russian airplane, we would act differently and warn him differently. Here are those on. It's great. Wait, you said that you warned repeatedly. And suddenly, at the level of the country's president, a statement follows that we did not know at all and did not know that it was a Russian plane.

Y. BUDKIN: It's just when our military give some or other evidence, they say: now, this is convincing evidence. Even going back to these gasoline tankers, when they started saying that here you are, here are the photos, here's the video. And then the Iraqi Kurds, and we have already said that like we are in some sense allies with them, the Iraqi Kurds say: no, it's just our gas tankers. How then do you believe the evidence?

N. KOVALYOV: To believe the evidence is necessary only in one case: when they all converge and everything is clear. Americans have pictures from space satellites. We are well aware of the resolving power of those photos taken from American reconnaissance satellites. They calmly read the numbers of all cars, take pictures. But the Americans do not give these photos. And when our Ministry of Defense provides, they say: you know, we will study, it is still not known, whose it is, where they move and so on.

Y. BUDKIN: So, our photos are in a smaller resolution than their photos?

N. KOVALEV: You know, no. We also have sufficient permission. But this is some kind of trick and trick that allows the political situation to somehow drag out. I personally do not see any reason not to trust the data of the Ministry of Defense. Of course, if we proceed from the fact that ...

Y. BUDKIN: And when the Kurds say: no, this is ours - that is, they even ascribe this to themselves? Do we still believe that they are wrong?

N. KOVALYOV: Firstly, among the Kurds there is a huge number of factions, there are thousands of different kinds of terrorist entities. Who transported this particular shipment of oil? Why was it delivered to this or that refinery or somewhere in the port? This, of course, must be understood and must be understood. Therefore, any grouping can declare: yes, this is our column.

But in essence, this does not change anything, because smuggled oil across the border is delivered in huge quantities. If before that experts assessed the profits that a terrorist group based in Syria was receiving, $ 3 million a day, now after the intervention of our armed forces, this profit dropped to $ 1.5 million. Of course, this is a serious damage, serious damage, which the Turkish leadership did not reconcile, as the events showed.

Y. BUDKIN: Sergey Vasilievich writes to us through the website govoritmoskva.ru. I will remind you, this is the "Jackets" program. You are live. With us, Nikolai Kovalyov, a member of the State Duma Committee on Security and Anti-Corruption. So, Sergei Vasilyevich writes that his military should be trusted in any scenario.

N. KOVALYOV: I think that in our time it's still necessary to check every information and be skeptical. Received confirmation from other sources. There are many ways to double-check. I'll draw your attention to the fact that in this case, of course, one can believe, but in no case do I formulate how to believe. One can believe for one simple reason: that all these data were published in leading American publications. They talked about this, wrote on the pages of the most influential American newspapers, that oil is delivered, delivered. And in this case, the Ministry of Defense of Russia confirmed absolutely officially, reliably, with the help of documents and photographs, what actually happened.

Y. BUDKIN: Remember, after all, the deputy defense minister said that Erdogan and his family personally have something to do with this.

N. KOVALYOV: Of course, Erdogan here is a cunning oriental fox.

Y. BUDKIN: But it's probably impossible to prove this.

N. KOVALYOV: Yes. We will now say a few words on this subject. I want to quote the words of three years ago. When he was screwed up about the construction of the palace for budget money, he said: prove - I will retire. Since then, he is on duty. In this case, he just says: prove it. What is the proof? Look, the son-in-law is the Minister of Energy. The son is the head of the largest energy company, which deals with the supply of oil, refining and so on.

From the point of view of formal logic, I think that any sane person understands that without the control of the Turkish Energy Minister, such flows can not proceed. Can not. Because it is an absolutely colossal amount of oil. But from the point of view of evidence of ties between the son-in-law and his ...

Y. BUDKIN: Then it turns out that these are just words. This assumption.

N. KOVALEV: This assumption, of course. Which is yet to be proved. I think that in this sense it is necessary to raise bills, it is necessary to look, whether the money arrives to the accounts personally ...

Y. BUDKIN: How can this be done?

N. KOVALEV: It's difficult, but it's possible.

Y. BUDKIN: After all, most likely, if the money comes, it was in Turkey. In any case, Erdogan controls the country.

N. KOVALYOV: Today, the Americans directly accuse Turkey of not closing the border, demanding closure of the border, demanding the establishment of order. And in essence we are talking about financing by the leadership of Turkey of the activities of terrorist organizations. Because the purchase of oil, the payment of money for it actually means that they went consciously to support terrorists on their territory.

Y. BUDKIN: And the 504th immediately writes to you: "Why were we silent until the Su-24 that Erdogan's family is like that?"

N. KOVALYOV: I think that here the 504th is absolutely right. We did a lot of things. For example, I kept looking at how long we were ready to go. Remember, the relationship with Ukraine is one stroke. We were taught: we do not say so "in Ukraine" - say "in Ukraine". All right, brothers, for you we are ready to warp our native language, we are ready to close our eyes to our rules. The same thing happened here. For the sake of achieving strategic goals ... and after all, what are they? This is a beautiful relationship of the population, absolutely friendly population of Turkey. Our people were resting there. That only this word is inclusive, and "all inclusive". All at once are filled with optimism. Therefore, of course, some political concessions were made in this sense. And we must justly say so.

Americans all published in the newspapers. Yes, the leaders did not recognize many obvious things. But all this is published and printed. I want to say only one thing: highly developed institutions of civil society, including the opposition, are very important. In our country, which should not turn a blind eye to these things, it should show, it should really tell people who are able to receive objective information, to draw their conclusions.

Y. BUDKIN: Remember, Erdogan said that he tried to get through, he did not get through. 151st asks your opinion: "If Erdogan apologized in the first minutes of firing the fighter, the situation somehow changed, from your point of view?"

N. KOVALEV: I think that at least from the moral and ethical point of view - of course. But you see what happens. Apologies were made after all rather indirect in conversation with the French representatives. It is not the same. Turkish Foreign Minister meets with our Foreign Minister Lavrov, and no apology.

Y. BUDKIN: Yesterday there were reports in the news.

N. KOVALYOV: No, this is with reference to the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Turkey. Lavrov also said that there were no apologies, they did not sound at the meeting. And then the next move is made. Since France has just suffered a severe terrorist attack, and this attack is comparable in essence with the military operation. This has not happened for a long time. In different parts of the city, carefully planned operations, militants, and just before the representatives of France, the people of France hear these apologies that they regret the death of the pilot. Make it public. Three days straight, I would say - insolent, they refuse even to consider the issue of regret about what happened.

Y. BUDKIN: Yesterday during the President's message to the Federal Assembly this phrase was sounded: you can not get rid of tomatoes. Ipati asks: "What can it be?"

N. KOVALYOV: Here, perhaps, the most ungrateful thing in fact is to decipher the messages of our president. In this case, I understand quite unambiguously: only on food sanctions we will not stop. There will, of course, be others. But what can it be? We have absolutely the right to assume and build our own hypotheses. First of all, this is the curtailment of cooperation in the field of military-technical. This, of course, is the curtailment of the oil business. Because Turkey tried, as we say in Russia, to suck two or even three queens at the same time. This is a wide range of measures, which we will take cold-bloodedly, carefully and consistently. Here the main thing is to prevent the prevalence of emotions, not to allow these emotions to leap up. And at the same time I would like to emphasize, addressing first of all to the government, not to allow damage to our compatriots who trade with Turkey, who, having already paid for something, try to hold here, but they are not allowed. The Turks in this sense do not incur any losses. That is, it is necessary to search in some way for an extension, it is necessary to look for a way out of the situation.

Y. BUDKIN: No matter how to find a way out of the situation, but it turns out that then the measures do not look so full. Now many people say that there are many such families in Russia, when a Russian is a husband, a Turkish woman, or vice versa. And it turns out that a person who lives in Russia for a long time, but a citizen of Turkey, will not be able to work on January 1. How can this be?

N. KOVALEV: We have a lot of tricks, if you want. The classical formula: the strictness of laws is compensated in a certain sense by their non-fulfillment. I just want to emphasize that there is no universal formula for imposing sanctions. Look, today the Western sanctions. It would seem that Europe, the United States, united, the sanctions rattled. And what are they? Are they effective? How strict are they, in execution? They are more of a political charge. Iran lived for decades in terms of sanctions. And he lived normally. Therefore, even here, it seems to me that in each specific case there should be a reasonable approach. Of course, a citizen of Turkey, who lives here in Russia, he has already taken some roots, he knows how to obtain this or that permission. And this all needs to be done just in the shortest time so that people who work for the benefit of our state, they are not harmed.

Y. BUDKIN: And the Turkish citizens to our citizens ... The Parliament of Dagestan submitted to the State Duma a bill to deprive Russian citizenship of terrorists and those who participate in military conflicts against Russia. This is generally a new twist. Now the state can not in principle deprive citizenship. What do you think about it?

N. KOVALEV: I think that, of course, the theme has the right to life, to existence, to discussion. The whole question is in working out the mechanism. And what is belonging to terrorism? What is belonging to the activities of a terrorist organization? It is necessary to formulate absolutely clearly. If there are grounds for depriving citizenship, and such grounds can really be participation in terrorist activities, support for a terrorist organization - yes, I, of course, for this deprivation. But the question is different. And where will they go? Today we are faced with the fact that even without deprivation of citizenship a huge number of people left for Syria, they are fighting on the side of terrorists.

Y. BUDKIN: Today we see in the news that one or both of the present, or our former citizen, allegedly killed another, whether former or current compatriot. What is it like?

N. KOVALYOV: After all, we do not know very much: is it an interpersonal conflict, or is it a conflict connected with the struggle ...

Y. BUDKIN: But it's served like a penalty.

N. KOVALEV: This, of course, is served as a penalty. And indeed it is what it looks like. But we do not know the underlying causes of this conflict. Are they lying in the plane of some kind of ideological, or are they lying in a different plane. We, alas, today, probably, we will not say. But any terrorist organization is first of all a struggle for power, for the opportunity to dominate. And in this sense, execution and destruction, the shooting of another person, another representative, of course, is a reflection of this struggle for power.

Y. BUDKIN: Nikolai Kovalyov, a member of the State Duma Committee on Security and Anti-Corruption, today in the program "Jackets". It's 3:30 pm, the news queue is on the line, then the advertisement, then we'll continue.


Y. BUDKIN: And we continue. This is live broadcast. Friday, December 4th. 15:36. My name is Yuri Budkin. Our guest is Nikolai Kovalyov, a member of the State Duma Committee on Security and Anti-Corruption. Several people ask you a question, apparently, given the experience of your work with the Federal Security Service: "Do not you admit that those terrorist attacks in Paris or what was in its time at the Boston Marathon - all this is some kind of staging?"

N. KOVALYOV: No, I do not. Based on experience, I will say that any preparation for a terrorist act involves the participation of many people. And when it really is a stage adaptation, to which people are attracted, there is always a leak at some stage. Therefore, 100% of terrorist attacks are the actions of terrorists, who understood perfectly well that they are being held responsible. I'm just getting distracted. Listened to the transfer.

Strange is the idea - to call children generators, it somehow I do not really. Well, we will call, who were born ... Plato.

Y. BUDKIN: Nikolai Dmitrievich, there were daspedramins.

N. KOVALEV: It was. It seems to me that this time has passed. There was an era of common sense and common sense policy, including. And here somehow ...

Y. BUDKIN: Then answer the 183rd: "How do you feel about Zhirinovsky's proposals for Turkey?" Do you remember about the nuclear explosion?

N. KOVALYOV: Do you know how you can relate to the statement of Vladimir Volfovich with the start of the election campaign? Therefore, of course, nothing in terms of implementation of these proposals do not carry in themselves. He is quoted, of course. His statements frighten the possible development of events. And again he uses this thesis with regard to the fact that, you see, the aggressor country. It seems to me that the situation must be taken into account here. I will give you an example only. Vladimir Volfovich made a lot of useful things to our country. For example, in PACE (Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe) for a long time, several years there was such an algorithm: Zhirinovsky says: vote "for" - unanimously, unanimously, regardless of the content, all against. And Zhirinovsky calls to vote against - and so on, it is understandable.

So, using this simple formula, sometimes Vladimir Volfovich made proposals that were extremely beneficial to the Russian Federation. And the PACE adopted a unanimous resolution, which was very, very necessary and very useful to Russia. Therefore, these stereotypes ...

Y. BUDKIN: Wait, you are now talking - Zhirinovsky as a sophisticated politician.

N. KOVALEV: I believe that it is. And these statements are calculated, including, of course, our audience, for the upcoming election campaign. And in this sense, I do not think that in fact they are subject to some practical application. Because the president replied in his message: we will not rattle arms, we will take decisions in a balanced, consistent manner, based, inter alia, on international law.

Y. BUDKIN: Now it's still. Remember, when you talked about the fact that if Erdogan's relatives are somehow engaged in buying or selling oil, then, of course, Erdogan can not not know this. And then Orange wrote: "If you make parallels with Seagull, Erdogan's son is not connected and Erdogan is not connected in any way." And now the 226th and a lot of people now write: "Please comment on the situation with the Seagull".

N. KOVALEV: With the Seagull, in fact, the situation is very simple. It is necessary to check, and to check in the most careful way.

Y. BUDKIN: And who will check?

N. KOVALYOV: Including the law enforcement agencies of Russia.

Y. BUDKIN: That is, the Prosecutor General's Office?

N. KOVALYOV: Including the institutes ... No. Why? We also have the Investigative Committee, there is the Federal Security Service of Russia. Most importantly, the algorithm of actions is violated. The algorithm is very simple: if you have documents that indicate a violation and confirm these violations, let's first check them. But in this case, it seems to me, the very idea is ruining the root. Here are published - and more authors of the report are not interested in anything: how to get the originals of these documents, how to prove that this is indeed so. After all, today it is worthless to make photocopies. This is often used to compromise a lot of our politicians.

Y. BUDKIN: The inquiries were already received by other people, and they received the same.

N. KOVALYOV: Yes. Once again I say that all this is to be checked. And, of course, all the same ...

Y. BUDKIN: This does not require any, for example, parliamentary investigation. Or at what point does it need to require special investigations?

N. KOVALYOV: To date, there is no institution of parliamentary investigation for specific cases per se for one simple reason: that this is activity at this stage of law enforcement. And interference in the investigation, in the conduct of the investigation, including the deputies, is legally prohibited, and it is strictly prohibited. Therefore, today this situation can not be silenced. And this is the strength of civil society.

Y. BUDKIN: Do you think that this situation will be exactly investigated?

N. KOVALEV: Absolutely unambiguously. We have the right to demand an answer from you.

Y. BUDKIN: Just here, Yuri writes to us through the website govoritmoskva.ru. It turns out that he will check himself. The Investigative Committee checked the prosecutors outside Moscow. You remember this story.

N. KOVALEV: Here I have long advocated the establishment of the institution of so-called independent prosecutors. The bottom line is that independent prosecutors, not submitting to the Prosecutor General's Office, conduct investigations into this kind of high-ranking officials.

Yu. Budkin: Something like this in the States.

N. KOVALEV: That's right. Something like that exists in the States. Long enough, really. There, too, this institution is not very bright. And more engaged in some political, PR-moves. But this is their problem. Our problems are that we need to get a clear, clear and understandable answer, where the documents are genuine, where they are rigged, where they are obtained in an absolutely legal way, and where these documents were obtained in violation of the law. After all, there is a very large, if you like, subtlety. Rather, it is simply a requirement of our criminal procedure legislation: all evidence must be obtained without violating the law, provided by the way described in the law. Once again, I'm sorry this complicated phrase, in fact it is very simple - without violating the law. Otherwise, it can not be a proof of guilt.

Y. BUDKIN: It turns out that the acting attorney general has obvious influence. Vitaly 44th asks: "How can you prove that the same independent experts were not bribed or frightened?" That is, civil society can not itself investigate and prove.

N. KOVALYOV: We then oppose you to the so-called kurtosis of the executor, which is that no matter what law you write, how to organize an investigation, you can still buy a person, you can be intimidated, and so on, which is an absolute truth. But there are people who are principled, there are people who do not make a deal with their conscience, with authority, and so on. It is on such people and we must rely. Why are journalistic investigations very effective? That is why. Because people believe in people who do this, they believe in their impartiality.

Y. BUDKIN: But journalists wrote about Chaika until 2015.

N. KOVALYOV: After all, in this case there are some failures, of course, in laws, in the legislation, because not all, unfortunately, it was possible to describe during this time. What is a conflict of interest? Is the violation of the law the business of the son, the ownership of the hotel and so on? No.

Y. BUDKIN: This is a more general question - is the father responsible for his son?

N. KOVALYOV: No, I do not. It's even different here. From the point of view of the law, is this a lobbying activity, is this a corrupt part? We can not say this today. And speak from the point of view of our current legislation.

Y. BUDKIN: But is the analogy with Erdogan relevant in this situation?

N. KOVALEV: Of course. Such an analogy has the right to life, to existence. And to prove that the money received by Erdogan personally and somehow passed to the account of his son - this is also a task that must be solved. If we draw an analogy about the Prosecutor General, if such documents are received - of course.

Y. BUDKIN: But in order to obtain documents, it is necessary to conduct an investigation. 004th asks: "Does the Prosecutor General work or should he be suspended for the time of such an investigation?"

N. KOVALEV: Until the fault of this or that person is proved, we can not assert. Otherwise, there is a so-called presumption of guilt, which we always strongly object to. We - I mean our country. We have now so much ... we can read on the Internet that almost all leaders should be immediately dismissed. And the people still add: everyone to the wall indiscriminately. This is also wrong. We must deal with you in detail in relation to each person: there is guilt, no guilt - and only after that make a decision.

Y. BUDKIN: What happens to the truckers, from your point of view. You on whose side?

N. KOVALEV: I'm always on the side of the people. At me now, as to me the general Office of Public Prosecutor has answered one of inquiries which I have directed, has written: your reference in favor of Ivanov, Petrov, Sidorov is considered. You listen, you that, you want to pin me, that I have someone's interests ... I have a profession. People turn to me in a hopeless situation. Now all the requests that I will send will, of course, be in the interest of someone. So I'm on the side of truckers.

Y. BUDKIN: So you're against the "Plato" system?

N. KOVALEV: I'm not against the "Plato" system. I'm against how it was implemented and how it was implemented. Explain to people how it will work, how. It's like saying: are you against the introduction of toll roads in Sheremetyevo? Have entered. What did you do? It's crazy. Because people do not want to pay crazy money.

Yu. Budkin: Where will they go? They will pay.

N. KOVALEV: As a result, the road is empty and everyone rushed to Leningradka. Here it is - cork. You will think over the payment system, explain it to people, and after a while an absolutely conscious decision will be found.

Y. BUDKIN: Wait. And with the tariffs for this toll road, and with the advancement of paid parking in Moscow, and with this system, "Plato" is usually said that people simply do not want to pay.

N. KOVALYOV: You know, according to the same Platon system, the initial plans that were in my head, I would say, inflamed, were there hundreds of times higher than now.

Y. BUDKIN: Yes, even now they are higher than world prices.

N. KOVALYOV: Still there were sound heads, which, for a start, significantly reduced this fee. Now the whole question is how this system will begin to work, and the whole issue is that truck drivers themselves understand that this is not a whim. To date, everyone is perceiving ... we just took, let's take another look at some direction. It is not right.

Y. BUDKIN: But with all that, what happened happened. They somewhere to us MKAD, on the Moscow ring road now they stand. They, apparently, stopped the traffic police. Why stopped, as stopped, we do not know yet, the police does not confirm the information about the partial blocking of the northern part of the Moscow Ring Road. What to do with them now?

N. KOVALYOV: Now we need to invite activists, we need to invite people who really influence these people. And to explain how and what will be done. Up to the transfer, the introduction of this system. I think that in this situation there is probably no other way out.

Y. BUDKIN: That is, it will look as if the authorities are reversing.

N. KOVALYOV: You know, the least you need to think about is that it will make some negative impression on people. The main thing is to show sanity and readiness for dialogue with the people, in this case - with truckers. It is very important. And rather, here the power will gain advantages, because after all, the decision to introduce a payment is made by certain specific people, which simply need to be rectified.

Yu. Budkin: All right. Project "Plato", now on Vyacheslav Lysakova refers to the agency "Interfax", "was implemented clumsily, without proper information support." And you are talking about it in the Duma, and the ministry says that everything is fine.

N. KOVALEV: You know, we talk a lot, because, unfortunately, people do not always hear and do not always listen. Because we are always in direct contact with people. Try to lie to them at a meeting in which there are 1500-2000 people. They'll just tell you: listen, or we'll get out of here ... what to listen to if you're lying? Because the deputies in this sense simply have to tell the truth and speak frankly with people. And to convey this point of view to the government, which we are doing.

Y. BUDKIN: Look, it's a common story. And with the same paid parking. Invite people. But they will invite someone who agrees. Here Vitaly writes: "Inviting will be convenient, will bribe. Some drivers did meet with Minister Sokolov. Only the other drivers do not trust those first. "

N. KOVALYOV: The issue of trust is, in general, the problem of development in the world. At the international level, we do not trust each other. Look, there was a split. And in the same way there is distrust from one trucker to another. And with whom then to talk? With whom to solve questions? Well, choose those people whom you trust completely, believe.

Y. BUDKIN: But people are chosen by those who want to talk. That is, it turns out that the two conflicting parties should meet each other?

N. KOVALEV: First of all, truckers must determine who they are authorized to talk to.

Y. BUDKIN: And they say that they have identified such people, but officials are talking to others.

N. KOVALEV: This is a topic that I do not understand. If truckers approved representatives, the names are listed, how can these people be ignored and not talk to them?

Y. BUDKIN: The 241st writes: "The column is being driven by a soldier in the direction between Altufevskoe highway and Dmitrovskaya. Now the outer Moscow Ring Road is almost entirely in the north and, as the traffic police write to us, they blocked all 6 lanes. "

N. KOVALEV: There can be some sort of movement there, but this is due to the provision of simple elementary security, because when clashes between the crowd occur, of course, preconditions for mass riots are created, and this is a task, of course, primarily for the police, not to allow this kind of development of events. Therefore, now the most important thing is a thoughtful constant conversation and explanation of plans for the government: what do we want in the end?

Y. BUDKIN: While the government says that everything is normal, the system works.

N. KOVALYOV: We spoke, I mean first of all "United Russia" through the lips of Vladimir Anatolyevich Vasilyev, the head of the faction, the Deputy Chairman of the State Duma, by the words of Vyacheslav Lysakov, said that there are questions to how this system is being implemented. Therefore, we will insist on this point of view, we will support truckers first of all.

Y. BUDKIN: Ipatii writes: "Most likely, today one of them will be arrested." Will you support them?

N. KOVALYOV: In this case, I promise only one thing: that, naturally, I am ready to intervene, to prepare relevant inquiries about the legality of the actions or the legality of the detention, on the basis of what happened. Therefore, an absolutely objective investigation will be conducted here. I think and I very much hope that the situation will not develop in the same way as the conflict way.

Y. BUDKIN: One more thing. You said that it is important that law enforcement agencies do their job, and security is first of all. Today the opposition reported that the mayor's office did not allow them to hold any action on December 12, they were going to pass from Pushkin Square to Sakharov Avenue. As it used to be. They were told that December 12 is impossible, because everyone is engaged in providing security until the New Year. How true is this?

N. KOVALYOV: You know, I generally offered long ago, after opposition rallies, at Marsh and certain confrontations, in general, offered to ensure the safety of these events to those who conduct them. They take responsibility for a huge mass of people. And in fact in many cases, there is what we call a provocation. People are told: we are on the same route, although a completely different route has been agreed upon. And suddenly on the way people are absolutely sure that they were allowed to turn to this street. Suddenly, there are groups of riot police, and, of course, immediately begins: the satraps, stranglers of freedom, why you do not let us in, clashes, riots in fact (so we call the premises), possible blood, affected people. Provide security with the same PPCs : hire them, pay them, so that there are no such kind of collisions.

Y. BUDKIN: People who want to protest, they protest.

N. KOVALEV: Organizers who take responsibility. This is a very important aspect. Of course, the state should not relieve itself of the responsibility to ensure the safety of people who are honest. But, you know, I'm talking a little bit about something else: that there are provocateurs who specifically provoke to play on this and play their political card.

Y. BUDKIN: That is, not themselves, but hiring PPCs?

N. KOVALEV: Of course.

Yu. Budkin: But still, when the holiday ...

N. KOVALYOV: But the idea, by the way, is not indisputable. I'm not saying ...

Y. BUDKIN: After all, when the holiday is at the end of the month, and already the 12th is not possible, is this correct?

N. KOVALEV: It is necessary to look here from those realities that ...

Yu. Budkin: There are a lot of holidays.

N. KOVALYOV: We have a lot of squares, too. But everyone wants to be on the same day, at the same time, precisely Pushkin, because it is a symbol of freedom. Pushkin is our everything. And Pushkin Square, probably our everything. Because from the point of view of even a PR move, the Swamp still sounds less loud than Pushkinskaya. Therefore, we must proceed from the realities. There is an opportunity - of course, it is necessary to conduct. As far as I know, the Moscow mayor's office is very loyal in this respect. If there is such an opportunity, they always give permission.

Y. BUDKIN: Today in the "Jackets" program we were accompanied by Nikolai Kovalyov, a member of the State Duma's Committee for Security and Anti-Corruption. Nikolai Dmitrievich, I thank you. Thank you.

N. KOVALEV: Thank you.